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V_for_Verbose
Tufted Titmouse
 Joined: Mar 13, 2013
Posts: 48
|  Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:58 pm?? ?Post subject: My personal thoughts on romantic love and autism |  |
| | I would first like to make a little disclaimer: What I'm about to say in this post in just my personal opinion, and is not in any way designed to target, belittle, upset, hurt, or harm anyone who reads this. These are just my opinions, and while they are controversial, I just want everyone who reads this to understand that I'm not criticizing or mocking anyone, or condemning those with autism. After all, I am one of you as well. I will also be making my opinion from the traditional, heterosexual viewpoint
My thoughts on Romantic Love:
I define romantic love as the bonding of two individual of the opposite sex into an emotional, social, and potential sexual commitment to each other for an unspecified amount of time, depending on the success of the relationship.
I think the whole purpose of romantic love, in the end, is copulation, and to bring offspring into the world to prolong the human species (producing children also has the added benefit of teaching and watching your children grow, and as you grow older, more often than not, they will help financially support you). While this is not always favored by some couples, who may not want kids, I believe that more often than not, a serious romantic relationship or a marriage will usually yield children (although, and unfortunate as it is, some new couples, who aren't really in love, have kids WAY before they are mentally and financially able to support them).
Romantic love is the conduit which leads to copulation, and eventually kids. It also solidifies a prolonged emotional commitment between two individuals for a long period of time, as long as things go well.
If a couple does not wish to produce children, romantic love is the means to solidify emotional and social stability between two individuals for a long period of time, and gives those two individuals comfort and support with each other.
Romantic love is also a prime example of Social Darwinism. Those who are naturally genetically "fit" are able to engage members of the opposite sex in emotional, and potentially, romantic relationships. The reason for their "fitness" is to eventually produce offspring, if they desire to do so.
My thoughts on High Functioning Autism and Romantic Love:
This is where my opinion will get offensive to some, and I apologize if I offend. Just as there are those who are "fit" for romantic relationships, there are those who are genetically "unift" for romantic relationships.
Examples of these: People with severe Down's Syndrome, moderate to severe mental retardation, severe to moderate Autism
If left to nature, without any outside influence or help, these individuals would not be able to engage in successful romantic relationship, and produce offspring.
In honesty, I even think high functioning autism makes one "genetically unfit" for romantic love, because of the immense difficulties we have in understanding our neurotypical peers, and engaging in romantic relationships. If left strictly to nature, without outside influence or knowledge, I do not see the highly functioning autistic individual as being able to be involved in successful romantic relationships. The only contradiction to this would be if the autistic individual didn't know they were high functioning autistic, or if they learned social skills early on and learned adaptation strategies.
However, I would make the argument that SOMEHOW, beyond my comprehension, high functioning autistics are able to engage in romantic relationships. A lot of them struggle and are not in relationships, but somehow, a minority is successful in this area. There are three reasons for this, in my opinion:
1. Cultural Folkways concerning dating
In most industrialized, developed nations, like the countries in Europe, the United States, England, etc, there are cultural folkways that are followed consistently. One is that men are expected to approach women they are attracted to, and ask them out on a date. It is culturally unusual and unheard of for a woman to ask out a man on a date.
This little factoid explains, in my opinion, why autistic women are more likely to be in a relationship than an autistic male would be. Because of cultural expectations and rules, that govern social interactions. Women wait for the approach, men make the approach.
2. Adaptation to social situations
While I consider high functioning autism a form of "genetic unfitness" for romantic relationship, I can't deny that there are those rare individuals who have adapted to social circumstances, and have learned the necessary skills to be involved in romantic relationships, either through trial and error, or through using knowledge from the outside source.
3. Neurotypical sympathy/breaking cultural folkways
I primarily see this with autistic males. They have trouble conveying their romantic interest in a NT girl, and that NT girl is sympathetic towards him, and likes her, and she bridges the gap by making the first move in order to get the ball rolling in a potential friendship or romantic relationship. This is a clear violation of traditional folkways of NT people, the expectation is for men to make the first move, and for women to wait for that move.
In another example, a NT girl likes an autistic boy, and she doesn't know how to tell him, so she does, and breaks traditional folkways set by society.
Conclusion
It is my belief that although high functioning autism is a form of genetic unfitness for romantic love and genuine human emotional connection, it is POSSIBLE for an autistic individual to establish a romantic relationship with a member of the opposite sex, GIVEN THE "RIGHT" circumstances, which as I stated were: cultural folkways concerning dating, adaptation, and neurotypical sympathy/breaking cultural folkways.
It is unfortunate that the autistic individual struggles so much in these areas (romantic love, relationships, etc), but while thing are bleak, they are not entirely impossible in the terms of probability of being in a potential romantic relationship.
These are my thoughts? Do you agree? Do you disagree? Did I make your head spin like a top and you're trying to process all that information? I'd like to hear what you have to say.  |
| | Back to top | | JanuaryMan
Aspierational
 Joined: Jan 02, 2012
Age: 28
Posts: 2527
Location: Hants, UK
| | Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 3:29 pm?? ?Post subject: | |
| I'm afraid I can't entirely agree with one of your opening statements for a number of reasons. First off, here is the statement:
| V_for_Verbose wrote: | | I define romantic love as the bonding of two individual of the opposite sex into an emotional, social, and potential sexual commitment to each other for an unspecified amount of time, depending on the success of the relationship. |
Now my reasons why I disagree:
o I don't believe romance is defined by commitment or sex. I think you'll find it's a relationship that's normally defined by commitment or trust of some kind, and possibly but not necessarily sex.
o The other thing that struck me with what you said is the implication it's primarily (possibly only) applicable to two individuals of the opposite sex based on our interpretation of gender classification. As I see romance as a specific display of affection and method of wooing a love/lust interest, I must respectfully disagree with the notion that only X or Y mind and body are the defining elements of Romance.
o I see Romance as an act exclusive of bonds, love, commitment, and relationships and it can serve to mould, enhance or be part of those separate things.
Thanks for reading.
(edited the message as some of the text was unclear).
_________________
"A man is but the product of his thoughts - what he thinks, he becomes." - Mahatma Gandhi Last edited by JanuaryMan on Thu May 16, 2013 6:58 pm; edited 2 times in total |
| | Back to top | | krazykat
Snowy Owl
 Joined: Mar 06, 2010
Posts: 140
| | | Back to top | | Ferrus91
Tufted Titmouse
 Joined: Apr 26, 2013
Age: 25
Posts: 48
Location: Kent, UK
| | | Back to top | | uwmonkdm
Phoenix
 Joined: Mar 06, 2013
Age: 23
Posts: 704
Location: Canada
| | | Back to top | | amapola
Hummingbird
Joined: Jan 01, 2013
Age: 19
Posts: 21
| | Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:43 pm?? ?Post subject: Re: My personal thoughts on romantic love and autism | |
| | V_for_Verbose wrote: | | I would first like to make a little disclaimer: What I'm about to say in this post in just my personal opinion, and is not in any way designed to target, belittle, upset, hurt, or harm anyone who reads this. These are just my opinions, and while they are controversial, I just want everyone who reads this to understand that I'm not criticizing or mocking anyone, or condemning those with autism. After all, I am one of you as well. I will also be making my opinion from the traditional, heterosexual viewpoint
My thoughts on Romantic Love:
I define romantic love as the bonding of two individual of the opposite sex into an emotional, social, and potential sexual commitment to each other for an unspecified amount of time, depending on the success of the relationship.
I think the whole purpose of romantic love, in the end, is copulation, and to bring offspring into the world to prolong the human species (producing children also has the added benefit of teaching and watching your children grow, and as you grow older, more often than not, they will help financially support you). While this is not always favored by some couples, who may not want kids, I believe that more often than not, a serious romantic relationship or a marriage will usually yield children (although, and unfortunate as it is, some new couples, who aren't really in love, have kids WAY before they are mentally and financially able to support them).
Romantic love is the conduit which leads to copulation, and eventually kids. It also solidifies a prolonged emotional commitment between two individuals for a long period of time, as long as things go well.
If a couple does not wish to produce children, romantic love is the means to solidify emotional and social stability between two individuals for a long period of time, and gives those two individuals comfort and support with each other.
Romantic love is also a prime example of Social Darwinism. Those who are naturally genetically "fit" are able to engage members of the opposite sex in emotional, and potentially, romantic relationships. The reason for their "fitness" is to eventually produce offspring, if they desire to do so.
My thoughts on High Functioning Autism and Romantic Love:
This is where my opinion will get offensive to some, and I apologize if I offend. Just as there are those who are "fit" for romantic relationships, there are those who are genetically "unift" for romantic relationships.
Examples of these: People with severe Down's Syndrome, moderate to severe mental retardation, severe to moderate Autism
If left to nature, without any outside influence or help, these individuals would not be able to engage in successful romantic relationship, and produce offspring.
In honesty, I even think high functioning autism makes one "genetically unfit" for romantic love, because of the immense difficulties we have in understanding our neurotypical peers, and engaging in romantic relationships. If left strictly to nature, without outside influence or knowledge, I do not see the highly functioning autistic individual as being able to be involved in successful romantic relationships. The only contradiction to this would be if the autistic individual didn't know they were high functioning autistic, or if they learned social skills early on and learned adaptation strategies.
However, I would make the argument that SOMEHOW, beyond my comprehension, high functioning autistics are able to engage in romantic relationships. A lot of them struggle and are not in relationships, but somehow, a minority is successful in this area. There are three reasons for this, in my opinion:
1. Cultural Folkways concerning dating
In most industrialized, developed nations, like the countries in Europe, the United States, England, etc, there are cultural folkways that are followed consistently. One is that men are expected to approach women they are attracted to, and ask them out on a date. It is culturally unusual and unheard of for a woman to ask out a man on a date.
This little factoid explains, in my opinion, why autistic women are more likely to be in a relationship than an autistic male would be. Because of cultural expectations and rules, that govern social interactions. Women wait for the approach, men make the approach.
2. Adaptation to social situations
While I consider high functioning autism a form of "genetic unfitness" for romantic relationship, I can't deny that there are those rare individuals who have adapted to social circumstances, and have learned the necessary skills to be involved in romantic relationships, either through trial and error, or through using knowledge from the outside source.
3. Neurotypical sympathy/breaking cultural folkways
I primarily see this with autistic males. They have trouble conveying their romantic interest in a NT girl, and that NT girl is sympathetic towards him, and likes her, and she bridges the gap by making the first move in order to get the ball rolling in a potential friendship or romantic relationship. This is a clear violation of traditional folkways of NT people, the expectation is for men to make the first move, and for women to wait for that move.
In another example, a NT girl likes an autistic boy, and she doesn't know how to tell him, so she does, and breaks traditional folkways set by society.
Conclusion
It is my belief that although high functioning autism is a form of genetic unfitness for romantic love and genuine human emotional connection, it is POSSIBLE for an autistic individual to establish a romantic relationship with a member of the opposite sex, GIVEN THE "RIGHT" circumstances, which as I stated were: cultural folkways concerning dating, adaptation, and neurotypical sympathy/breaking cultural folkways.
It is unfortunate that the autistic individual struggles so much in these areas (romantic love, relationships, etc), but while thing are bleak, they are not entirely impossible in the terms of probability of being in a potential romantic relationship.
These are my thoughts? Do you agree? Do you disagree? Did I make your head spin like a top and you're trying to process all that information? I'd like to hear what you have to say. |
But people are on higher evolutional level than animals.Disability doesn`t mean that someone should not have a relationship.We are civilized people ,and everyone has the right to realise what he/she wants in life.But your statements,are,unfortunately,true in most cases. |
| | Back to top | | V_for_Verbose
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 13, 2013
Posts: 48
| | Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:22 pm?? ?Post subject: | |
| |
Let me first of all say congratulations on your AS/AS or AS/other disability relationship .
You are correct when you said I forgot about people like you. But the reason why I did that, krazykat, is because realistically, although there is a slight to moderate probability of an AS/AS or AS/OD relationship, I would make the argument that we, the autistic, are a minority among the majority, who are neurotypical.
And as such, the likelihood of finding another compatible AS or OD partner is slim in my estimation. I probably figure that you met your AS other half through alternative means then the stereotypical meet someone, ask them on a date, and start a relationship if all goes well.
I'm merely guessing, but you probably met her via an Autism support group, online via chatrooms, or specifically were look for someone with AS to date.
Remember, the autism rate now is either 1 in 66 children are born with autism, or 1 in 88 children are born with autism. We are still a minority when it comes to neurodiversity. |
| | Back to top | | V_for_Verbose
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 13, 2013
Posts: 48
| | Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:42 pm?? ?Post subject: Re: My personal thoughts on romantic love and autism | |
| | amapola wrote: | | But people are on higher evolutional level than animals.Disability doesn`t mean that someone should not have a relationship.We are civilized people ,and everyone has the right to realise what he/she wants in life.But your statements,are,unfortunately,true in most cases. |
I agree with you. My point, when discussing "fitness", is explaining the ability of one to be social enough, and to have enough knowledge, to be able to engage the opposite sex in such a way that the probability of being in a relationship down the road is higher.
When I use the term "unfit" I am referencing that the individual isn't naturally able to engage in the social dialouge, flirting, and other steps to engage the opposite sex in such a way that they can possibly be in a romantic relationship.
A good example of "unfitness" to "fitness" through the use of adaptation would be like this:
You have a kid in high school who is scrawny, nonathletic, and is picked on often by kids because he is weaker, and is interested in things they aren't interested in. He gets beat up occasionally by bullies. One day, he gets tired of it, and decides "I'm going to be strong". He starts lifting weights regularly, and takes a boxing class and learns everything about boxing.
A couple months down the road, he is stronger, and knows how to defend himself. Bullies try to pick on him, and he beats they up for a change. People don't mess with him anymore.
He was "unfit", and now he is "fit" through "adaptation" to increase his chances of survival.
But I agree with you in this sense- everyone who is capable of full cognition, and the ability to rationalize, should be able to be in a relationship. The only problems I see are with the severe to moderately mentally retarded, severe Down's Syndrome, and severe to moderately autistic, because these individuals usually need the assistance of someone else, and can not function independently.
It would beg the question whether they would be competent enough to handle the ramifications of having children through copulation, if they were allowed that luxury.  |
| | Back to top | | billiscool
Phoenix
 Joined: Feb 06, 2006
Age: 30
Posts: 1034
| | | Back to top | | V_for_Verbose
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 13, 2013
Posts: 48
| | Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:28 pm?? ?Post subject: | |
| | billiscool wrote: | | from V_for_verbose: '' It is culturally unusual and unheard of for a woman to ask out a man on a date''
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, then how do you explain my ex girlfriend then, who asked me out? she did have autism, if that makes a difference or not. |
I stand by what I said because I know it is true, and what I have read countless times in books on how to attract women, and what I've seen many times. In most developed industrialized nations, like the United States, Great Britain, Europe, and Australia, it is culturally expected for guys to make the first move.
For your circumstance, billiscool, tell me, did she ask you or before or after she learned you were autistic?
My analysis would be this- There are only a couple circumstances in which a girl will ask out a guy:
1.) If a girl really like a guy a lot, but doesn't think he knows that she likes him, she might drop hints like: "It was nice talking with you,
maybe we should hang out sometime" or "hey, I'm free Monday and I'm going to hang out at the mall, would you like to come?" So
he'll get the picture and accept or ask her out.
2.) If a guy really likes a girl, but is having trouble expressing his romantic interest in her, and if she picks up on it, she will probably
do one of two things- she will either be annoyed or irritated that he's not making the move, and her attraction towards him will
drop like a brick off a skyscraper OR she'll find it cute, and will try to make the first move to get the ball rolling towards an eventual
relationship.
3.) If a girl really likes a guy a lot, she will drop hints. If the guy doesn't pick up on the hints, she might get a little frustrated. She might
even tell a close gal friend about it, and that gal friend may come to the guy and say "You know, Jessica really likes you a lot, I think
you two would be good together." That's happened to me before.
There may be more circumstances than this, but these are the ones I know about, and some I've experienced before. |
| | Back to top | | V_for_Verbose
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 13, 2013
Posts: 48
| | Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:43 pm?? ?Post subject: | |
| | JanuaryMan wrote: | | I don't believe romance is defined by commitment or sex. I think you'll find it's a relationship that's normally defined by commitment or trust of some kind, and possibly but not necessarily sex. |
That's why I stated "potential sexual commitment". Not all couples engage in sex when they start dating. Some abstain from it until marriage for moral or religious reasons, or because they want to make sure that the person they are with loves them for them until they potentially get married. But I agree with your notion of trust and commitment, which are necessary for a good, durable romantic relationship.
| JanuaryMan wrote: | | The other thing that struck me with what you said is the implication it's primarily (possibly only) applicable to two individuals of the opposite sex based on our interpretation of gender classification. As I see romance as a specific display of affection and method of wooing a love/lust interest, I must respectfully disagree with the notion that only X or Y mind and body are the defining elements of Romance. |
I stated I would base my opinions on love on the traditional heterosexual viewpoint. While I certainly do believe gay, lesbian, and bisexual people can fall in love with each other, and I have friends who are as such, the reason why I went with the heterosexual model of "romantic love" is because the real "purpose" of love and romance is two-fold- one is have a system of moral support and comfort for an unspecified period of time, which is dependent on the successful status of the relationship, and two- to copulate and pass your genes on to the next generation, which should support you in your old age.
Gay people can't have children- they can adopt them, or have artificial insemination, or other options. The only combination that produces offspring is the heterosexual one, since our reproductive organs are designed to act in conjunction with the opposite sex to produce offspring. So in essence- romantic love can be experienced by all sexual orientations, however the heterosexual combination is the only one that produces offspring, which is the product of romantic love, when taking to the fullest level. |
| | Back to top | | JanuaryMan
Aspierational
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
Age: 28
Posts: 2527
Location: Hants, UK
| | Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:51 pm?? ?Post subject: | |
| | I can understand your viewpoints from a heterosexual standpoint but unfortunately I do not understand why you feel it's necessary to limit yourself to that viewpoint alone. In the coming decades, centuries, should we not wipe ourselves out who can or can't procreate will mean nothing outside of the fringe group of tribal extremists.
We can already clone, artificially inseminate, artificially create. Our evolution is getting to the point where it is no longer defined by our body development but our technology and science. It's happening right now. Procreation will no longer determine a lot of things about relationships for heterosexuals let alone any other sexuality or genders.
Perhaps I'm thinking too far forward here, but I prefer not to limit my thinking to confined spaces. Heterosexual relationships for the time being might have the soul purpose of pro creation but I myself don't care about passing on a torch or legacy and I feel many others are the same, gay and straight. Anyways, I digress....
------------------------------------------
Romance - an act. Can be done in/out of but is not synonymous with love, passion, relationships.
Myself - 2013  EDIT: I noticed I hadn't touched on any of your thoughts about Autism. Expect that tomorrow! It's like, 3AM! Cheerio.
_________________
"A man is but the product of his thoughts - what he thinks, he becomes." - Mahatma Gandhi |
| | Back to top | | billiscool
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 06, 2006
Age: 30
Posts: 1034
| | Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:36 pm?? ?Post subject: | |
| yes, she asked me out mr.v... she said to me at work ''hey, bill you want to hang out''
and that how it all start, we met at a park. a few days later, I was walking her home, and I ask if I could I kiss her and she said
yes, and I had my first kiss. We would mostly just go to parks and make out. this went on for a few months,
then one day we were just walking and she just said ''hey, bill, you want to have sex'' and of course I said ''yes.''
and before she ask ''want to hang out'' she came up to me first, she would always talk to me at work.
this went on for a couple month, before she just ask '''want to hang out''.
but she never had sex before she met me, I was her first sex partners. In fact, she never really talk to anyone but me,
she had no friends, she had one boyfriend before, but they never did anything, and the guy was very disable.
around people, she was very quiet and very reserve. and she had alot of tall tales, she would talk about her adventure,
but most were most likely untrue. so that all I can say about her. |
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